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 Topic: Welcome to the Partnership and Family Board

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glbtq  
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Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 133


Posted: 22 Feb 2004, 11:54 am    Post subject: Welcome to the Partnership and Family Board Reply with quote

Welcome to the Marriage, Partnership, Civil Union, and Family forum. This board is devoted to glbtq relationships including marriage, partnership, parenthood, polyamory, and friendship networks and the laws that govern them.

Only members may post messages on glbtq's discussion boards. Membership is free, and you may join by clicking the "Join Today" link in the green login box in the left column of this page.
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Robert Mc  



Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 49
Interests: Politics, gay issues, human rights, classical and ethnic music and art, alcoholism and drug addiction recovery, health and fitness, spirituality... We need support to fight homophobia by a hardcore of religious and political leaders who managed to con
Physical Location: Metro San Juan, Puerto Rico

Posted: 23 Feb 2004, 4:51 am    Post subject: Spoonful of truths about gay marriages... Reply with quote

To: Readers' Viewpoint, THE SAN JUAN STAR
From: Robert Mc Carroll -- Carolina -- 787-253-0388 -- New: bobinpr@coqui.net

Spoonfuls of truth about gay marriages...

When we debate gay marriages, let's be honest and not fear the truth. Let's get honest and real! It's time to examine the lies and myths of the religious zealots and political bigots. The truth will set all of us free.

In a recent letter to the STAR, I mentioned that Human Rights for any group of people involves not believing in myths and lies. I stated: "... We need to be spoon fed the truths about gay issues." On Valentine's Day Bill Maher, the political humorist, made some comments at the end of his show about gay marriages. Here are some quotes -- spoon full of truths -- from his closing comments:

"... Half the people who pledge eternal love are doing it because one of them is
either knocked up, rich or desperate..."

"... Republicans are always saying we should privatize things like schools,
prisons, social security -- hey, how about we privatize privacy! ..."

"... They believe that if a gay man just devotes his life to Jesus,
he'll stop being gay, because that worked out so well with the Catholic
priests ..."

"... in George Bush's mind, marriage is only a beautiful lifetime bond of love and sharing, kind of like what his dad has with the Saudis ..."

"... Because if the government forbids gay men from tying the knot, what is their
alternative? They can't all marry Liza Minnelli ..."

"... gay marriage is opposed because it threatens or mocks or does something to the sanctity of marriage, as if anything you can do in Vegas drunk off your ass in front of an Elvis impersonator could be considered sacred ..."

"... There is no sin. It's not an abomination and no one can control how cupid aims his arrows, and the ones who pretend they can usually turn out to be the biggest freaks."


Robert McCarroll -- Carolina -- 787-253-0388
_____________________________________________


This was Bill Maher's Valentine's Day show-ending comments last Saturday night:.. wrm


Bill Maher:


"You can't claim you're the party of smaller government and then make laws
about love. On this Valentine's day, let's stop and ask ourselves, "What
business is it of the state how consenting adults choose to pair off, share
expenses, and eventually stop having sex with each other?"


And why does the Bush administration want a constitutional amendment about
weddings? Hey, why stop at weddings? Birthdays are important; let's put them
in the great document. Let's make a law that gay people can have birthdays,
but straight people get more cake. You know, to send the right message to
kids.Republicans are always saying we should privatize things like schools,
prisons, social security -- hey, how about we privatize privacy! Because if
the government forbids gay men from tying the knot, what is their
alternative? They can't all marry Liza Minnelli.


You know, the Republicans used to be the party that opposed social
engineering, but now they push programs to outlaw marriage for some people
and encourage it for others. If you're straight, there's $1.5 billion in the
budget to promote marriage, but gay marriage is opposed because it threatens
or mocks or does something to the sanctity of marriage, as if anything you
can do in Vegas drunk off your ass in front of an Elvis impersonator could
be considered sacred.


Half the people who pledge eternal love are doing it because one of them is
either knocked up, rich or desperate. But in George Bush's mind, marriage is
only a beautiful lifetime bond of love and sharing, kind of like what his
dad has with the Saudis.


But at least the right wing aren't hypocrites on this issue. They really
believe that homosexuality is an abomination and a dysfunction that's
curable. They believe that if a gay man just devotes his life to Jesus,
he'll stop being gay, because that worked out so well with the Catholic
priests.


But I have to tell you that the greater shame in this story goes to the
Democrats because they don't believe homosexuality is an abomination, and,
therefore, their refusal to endorse gay marriage is hypocrisy. Their
position doesn't come from the Bible; it's ripped right from the latest poll
which says that most Americans are against gay marriage. Well, you know
what? Sometimes most Americans are just wrong, and where is the Democrat who
will stand up and go beyond the half-measures of civil union and
hate-the-sin-love-the-sinner and say loud and clear, "There is no sin. It's
not an abomination and no one can control how cupid aims his arrows, and the
ones who pretend they can usually turn out to be the biggest freaks."


The law in this country should reflect that some people are just born
one-hundred-percent outrageously, fabulously, undeniably Fire-Island gay.
And they do not need re-programming -- they need a man with a slow hand."
_________________
It is time to free Puerto Rico of homophobic religious and political power brokers.
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Coqui  



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 12


Posted: 23 Feb 2004, 6:27 am    Post subject: Is Marriage Only For The Unfaithful?? Reply with quote

First, all the uproar around the States in the past 5-7 days in 8-9 states is somethign like a pep rally. The Lesbians/Gays have gone "public" with their demands instead of accepting their positions in the usual humility fashion.

Rocking the boat seems like a good thing to do now and was quite unheard of even 4-5 years ago. Perhaps, the difference is now in sheer numbers and an Army of Gay/Lesbians have gotten together and are making a stand against the Courts and the Religious Right of the Bible Belt.

President Bush in securing the Bible Belt Votes will not be pressured into any admendment or proposal or anything remotely to do with the Courts and over his dead body. It might take another 8-12 years before official recognition is given to the Gays/Lesbian Rights.

The Blacks took them over 80 years for their Civil Rights, so I presume, what's the rush to judgement??? The Church will play the Switzerland game and they have enough problems in their own backyard with the lack of discipline among the shepards. Don''t look for sympathy from them at all.

This movement is good, healthy and above all, a right step in the full rights of all persons living equally under the law. wasn't it suppose to be that way back in l776???

What do you think???
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Coqui  



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 12


Posted: 24 Feb 2004, 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a Speak Out Forum on WOSO Today and the main topic was the Gay/Lesbians Marriage and Mr. McCarroll called in and stated how things and times have changed since the 50's and 60's but the hatred and venom continues on full swing.

Curiously, right after McCarroll's call in, there was this bigot and this Guy speaking of the Devil and the Evils that Homosexuals, Lesbians and even Interracial Marriages are poisoning the World. Could this be Bush's distant relative living in Puerto Rico???

The biggest evildoers are the 'Normal" wonderful people that kill, murder, maim, destroy, vile, abused and all other good stuff that normal people do every single day of their lives.

Now, President Bush want the Election and the Bible Belt Righteous Votes with his insane amendment to the Marriage Law banning all marriages other than the ones I described above. Is President Bush going on a time machine back to the future???

The Robertsons, Falwells, and Ashcrofts are convincing Bush that this is the way for re-election and hell with sanity, good living habits and environment and wodnerful relationships that has nothing to do with any religous group or political force.

I am more convince than ever that the United States will return to the "Glory" days of the 50's and 60's and the KKK and the Bible Belt Rightists will be on full swing every full moon.
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wik  



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Posts: 57
Interests: History, the Web
Physical Location: Chicago

Posted: 24 Feb 2004, 12:50 pm    Post subject: NGLTF says Bush has reached "despicable new low." Reply with quote

**************************************************************
NATIONAL GAY AND LESBIAN TASK FORCE
MEDIA RELEASE - Feb. 24, 2004

MEDIA CONTACT:
Sheri A. Lunn Director of Communications - 323-857-8751 or 202.641.5592

http://www.TheTaskForce.org
**************************************************************

NATIONAL GAY AND LESBIAN TASK FORCE CALLS PRESIDENT BUSH'S DEMAND FOR ANTI-MARRIAGE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT 'DESPICABLE NEW LOW'

RESPONSE BY NATIONAL GAY AND LESBIAN TASK FORCE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR MATT FOREMAN:

"Today the President of the United States, solely for political gain, called upon Congress to amend the United States Constitution to enshrine our second-class citizenship in the nation's most revered document. This is a despicable new low.

This is nothing more than a transparent election year ploy to use our lives and families to drive a wedge into the electorate and divert attention away from the critical issues that face our country.

In the face of this, the president's exhortation that this debate be conducted 'without bitterness or anger' is an insult to our families, our dignity and to our contributions as citizens to the life of this nation. We consider today's announcement a declaration of war on gay America.

Marriage equality for same-sex couples harms no one. As the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts has said, 'the history of our nation has demonstrated that separate is seldom, if ever, equal.' Yet, the President calls for just that: separate and forever unequal rights for gay Americans.

Over the past 200 years our nation has resolved and reached consensus on social justice issues through a process involving its courts, national discourse, and legislation. The freedom to marry for same sex couples should be resolved the same way. Bowing to the religious and political zealots who comprise his base, however, the President now seeks to subvert these democratic processes and shut down the national dialogue about same-sex marriage.

We call upon members of Congress as well as candidates seeking the Democratic party's nomination for president to strongly oppose amending the United States Constitution and to call the President's support for the amendment for what it is: anti-gay, partisan, divisive and distinctly un-American. We call upon all Americans, our families and friends to rally and defeat this attack."

More information on the struggle for equal marriage rights can be found in the Task Force Marriage Information Resource Center at http://www.TheTaskForce.org/marriagecenter
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Robert Mc  



Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 49
Interests: Politics, gay issues, human rights, classical and ethnic music and art, alcoholism and drug addiction recovery, health and fitness, spirituality... We need support to fight homophobia by a hardcore of religious and political leaders who managed to con
Physical Location: Metro San Juan, Puerto Rico

Posted: 24 Feb 2004, 2:20 pm    Post subject: There is a difference between marriage and matrimony. Reply with quote

I had the following posted under a different topic and the glbtq forum. I am repeating it here where it makes more sense...

Is it time for gay leaders to prepare easy-to-understand and concise position papers on gender definitions, gay marriages and other key issues concerning human rights?

For a long time, I was one of many senior citizens who was very much against the use of the term "gay marriage." As a Roman Catholic, I was conditioned to view legal marriage as the same as the sacrament of holy matrimony. Until a few days ago, I believed that holy matrimony and marriage were one and the same with no distinctions. It offended me when gay leaders and their supporters started to demand "gay marriage." I accepted the common wisdom that any decision about marriage came under the Church and not the State.

Not only did the term "gay marriage" offend me, but it frightened me. Much of my earlier beliefs such as the meaning of marriage have been predicated on a wide variety of myths and dirty little secrets accepted and enforced on me by a super large majority. My earlier myths and dirty little secrets were like a "House of Cards." If I pull out one card to search for truth, my entire "House of Cards" -- my entire life -- would fall down and I would end up with nothing. I would have preferred not to even consider gay marriage as a human right under our legal system.

I received several well thought out and concisely expressed emailed explanations on gay marriages, civil unions and holy matrimony rituals from a loving priest here in Puerto Rico. What I found particularly informative and helpful was the explanation of how from the days the Pilgrims first arrived on Plymouth Rock up to today, marriage is first determined by marriage laws and not by the a particular church's or religious group's canon laws or procedures for the ritual of marriage.

Marriage is first a legal contract issued by the state and not by a religious organization. When the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled on the question of "gay marriages," its ruling was based strictly on the applicable laws of the land including the U.S. Constitution and the laws of Massachusetts. Canon law or any religious sacrament or ritual was properly not considered in thr court's deliberations and final decision.

If a Roman Catholic couple are married, the legal marriage civil contract is then sanctified by the sacrament of Holy Matrimony. It is necessary to first meet legal contractual requirementst. Struggling to understand the distinction between marriage as a legal act and matrimony as a religious sacrament or rite made it possible for me to see the sound reasoning behind gay activists insisting on using the broader and more inclusive term "gay marriage" instead of settling for the more widely accepted, but limited term of "gay civil union." Thank God for the Internet. I search the web for all kinds of answers from pro- and anti-gay (also neutral) groups positions on the pros and cons of gay marriages. I learned a lot. I was uneducated about what marriage vs. matrimony meant.

I have a very politically conservative friend who is also a devout Roman Catholic. He was expounding how he is very much against "gay marriages." He believes that this gay marriage issue would set the gay human rights movement back several years. He wondered why it was even brought up. I told him it was brought up because it is the time to bring it up and concerns being honest instead of continuing to accept dirty little secrets and myths. He then ask me: "How can gay marriages even be a legitimate issue if the vast, overwhelming majority of the public is against gay marriages?"

I reminded him that until President Dwight Eisenhower was president, it was illegal in many states for a white person to marry a black person. Up to President Eisenhower, we had a segregated army. Before Eisenhower, anyone advocating equal rights for blacks, especial the right for interracial marriage, would be denounced. The overwhelming majority of the American public would disagree with even a suggestion of equal rights for black people. Then, it came the opportune time for blacks and their white supporters to fight for civil rights for all races. Many anti-black politicians became educated to understand and accept civil rights for their black citizens in all aspects of life including interracial marriages. The U.S. military services were integrated to include all races having egual rights.

Has the time come for the heterosexual, homosexuals, lesbians, bisexuals and transsexuals to to take a stand on supporting marriage for all sexual orientations?
_________________
It is time to free Puerto Rico of homophobic religious and political power brokers.
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wik  



Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Posts: 57
Interests: History, the Web
Physical Location: Chicago

Posted: 24 Feb 2004, 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: There is a difference between marriage and matrimony. Reply with quote

Robert Mc wrote:
Is it time for gay leaders to prepare easy-to-understand and concise position papers on gender definitions, gay marriages and other key issues concerning human rights?


glbtq's new Social Sciences department has entries on same-sex marriage, civil union, domestic partnership, and transgender issues. They provide authoritative background information related to questions about legal and other issues surrounding GLBT relationships and gender identities. It's also interesting to see how gay relationships are recognized in other countries, notably Scandinavia.

The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force has a variety of position papers related to marriage, partnership, and civil union issues available on its Web site: http://www.ngltf.org
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Coqui  



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 12


Posted: 26 Feb 2004, 7:57 am    Post subject: Let's Go To The Movies Reply with quote

All this huss and fuss over Gibson's "epic" religious flick since Cecil de Mille's Ten Commandments was brought about the bible belt rightists of Bush who are ramming their Missionary Position of Marriage down our throats.

I cannot love Bob or Tim or another person of the same sex 'cause that's weak and outrageous and so unpatriotic. Instead of waving the stars 'n stripes, it's the cardinal sin to wave a flag of love and compassion.

Even the Church is taking a stand and rightfully so but only for their wicked protection of its own flock that failed so miserably in their jobs. This Church are the Enrons of Big Business. They controlled, manipulate, persuade and then do their gestapo tactics in reminding our souls that it's "us" or the bus.

Gibson's movie is so epic that's there is at least $350 Million windfall going into the pockets of this non believer and not out of artisty but attacking the sin ridden consciences of the movie goers. It's like going to confession with a price tag.

Once again, the sinners of this world still believe the same old trick in buying you way to Heaven and enternal paradise and without the discomforts of being a nice person with good manners. That is truly the miracle in all of us.
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PROCHOICE  



Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 1
Interests: FREEDOM OF CHOICE SHOULD REMAIN IN THE UNITED STATES AS THAT IS WHAT OUR VETERANS HAVE FOUGHT FOR. THE UNITED STATES IS KNOWN WELL FOR THE FREEDOM WE ALL HAVE, THAT SHOULD NEVER BE TAKEN AWAY. WHETHER FOR MARRIAGE OF SAME-SEX COUPLES OR FOR BEING PRO-C
Physical Location: CONNECTICUT

Posted: 26 Feb 2004, 11:39 pm    Post subject: RIGHT OF CHOICE Reply with quote

I FIRMLY BELIEVE IN PRO-CHOICE, I BELIEVE WE SHOULD ALL HAVE THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE AND THAT OUR FREEDOM SHOULD BE SACRED. I BELIEVE THAT POLITICAN'S CAN'T DO THE JOB THEY SHOULD BE DOING, SO INSTEAD THEY CHOOSE TO MEDDLE WHERE THEY DON'T BELONG. I WILL BE AT THE MARCH AT WASHINGTON D.C. ON SUNDAY APRIL 25TH, IT IS A MARCH FOR WOMEN'S LIVES, FOR WOMEN'S REPRODUCTIVE FREEDOM, & WOMEN'S RIGHT TO PRIVACY!!!!!!!!!

I AM NOT HOMOSEXUAL, HOWEVER I FIRMLY BELIEVE ALSO IN THE DECISION OF SAME-SEX MARRIAGES FALLING SOULY ON THE SHOULDERS OF THE ONES THAT WANT TO GET MARRIED. WHATEVER HAPPENED TO SEPERATING STATE AND CHURCH? ALL I HEAR ABOUT IS PRESIDENT BUSH WANTS A CONSTITUTION AMENDMENT THAT WOULD BAN SAME-SEX MARRIAGES. WHY, CAUSE HE DOESN'T LIKE IT OR BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SAY IT IN THE BIBLE? SEPERATE STATE & CHURCH OR LEAVE THE OVAL OFFICE. LET ALL OF US AMERICANS HAVE OUR FREEDOM THAT OUR VETERANS FOUGHT SO HARD FOR US TO HAVE.

IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT IT CLEARLY STATES: CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, THIS IS THE SAME AMENDMENT THAT SAYS: FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

AS I SAID I AM NOT GAY BUT I HAVE MANY FRIENDS THAT ARE, AND I HONESTLY HOPE THE AMENDMENT DOES NOT PASS THROUGH. THIS IS PUNISHMENT, AND IT'S NOT FAIR, IT IS A PUNISHMENT THAT NOT ONE PERSON DESERVES. EVERY PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY, EVERY WHERE FOR THAT MATTER DESERVES THE RIGHT TO BE HAPPY, AND TO BE MARRIED TO WHOMEVER THEY SO CHOOSE. NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE THE DECISION OF NOT GETTING MARRIED FOR ANY OF US. OF COURSE NOW THE ONE WHO THINKS HE SHOULD DO SOMETHING GOOD WHILE HE IS IN OFFICE, STANDS UP AND MAKES THINGS WORSE.....GO FIGURE!!

************PRES. BUSH PROBABLY WANTS TO BAN THE SAME-SEX MARRIAGE SO HIS DAUGHTER, JENNA THE ONE THAT DRINKS ALOT DOESN'T GO OUT AND MARRY HER GIRLFRIEND WHILE DRUNK ONE NIGHT.....WHAT A SHAME...AND THEN HEY HE WANTS A BAN ON ABORTION AND EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION, WELL THAT'LL BE FOR HIS OTHER DAUGHTER BARBARA, SINCE SHE'S THE QUIETER ONE.....SHE MIGHT END UP WITH 5 KIDS OR HAVE A COAT ROOM ABORTION DONE AND HAVE MANY PROBLEMS, SINCE WE WON'T HAVE ANY RIGHTS LEFT, BUT HEY THEY WILL BOTH BE ABLE TO THANK THEIR BIG TEXAN DADDY!!!!! OF COURSE, I DON'T HOPE FOR THIS TO HAPPEN, BUT THE FACT IS THAT IT COULD!

http://www.angelfire.com/space/pearly/bush/bush_daughters1.jpg
http://protest.bmgbiz.net/SOTnewCICTN.jpg
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/bljandb.htm

ANYWAY THAT I CAN HELP SUPPORT SAME-SEX MARRIAGES I AM GOING TO!!!!
I HOPE I DIDN'T BOTHER YOU ALL BY COMING ON THIS SITE AND LEAVING A VERY LONG MESSAGE. SOME READING THIS, PROBABLY THINK I DON'T CARE IF SHE IS STRAIGHT WHO CARES..........I KNOW AND I'M SORRY, BUT I JUST WANTED TO EXPRESS HOW SORRY I AM TO ALL THAT THIS IS GOING ON. IT SUCKS!!

MY BEST FRIENDS ARE MY GAY FRIENDS!
TAKE CARE,
JENNIFER
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Robert Mc  



Joined: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 49
Interests: Politics, gay issues, human rights, classical and ethnic music and art, alcoholism and drug addiction recovery, health and fitness, spirituality... We need support to fight homophobia by a hardcore of religious and political leaders who managed to con
Physical Location: Metro San Juan, Puerto Rico

Posted: 28 Feb 2004, 6:52 pm    Post subject: Hope GWB includes all biblical injunctions in amendment. Reply with quote

Let's all pray that President George W. Bush manages to get all of the biblical injunctions worked into the constitutional amendment he proposed to protect the sanctity of marriage.

1. Marriage should consist of a union between one man and one or more women.
Gen 29:17-28. II Samuel 3:2-5

2. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines in addition to his wife or wives.
II Samuel 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chronicles 11:21

3. Marriage will be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If she is not a virgin, she shall be executed.
Deut. 22:13-21

4. Marriage to a non believer shall be strictly forbidden.
Gen 24:3; Num 25:1-9, Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30

5. Marriage is for life and no law shall permit any form of divorce.
Deut 22:19; Mark 10-9-12.

6. If a married man dies without children. His brother must marry the widow. If the brother refuses to marry the widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law.
Gen 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10

7. In lieu of marriage (if there is no acceptable man to be found) a woman shall get her father drunk and have sex with him in order to have children.
Gen 19:31-36

With thanks to my email friends who forwarded me the about biblical injunctions plus many more.
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Coqui  



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 12


Posted: 28 Feb 2004, 7:20 pm    Post subject: The Commandments of the Bible Belt??? Reply with quote

If a married man dies without children. His brother must marry the widow. If the brother refuses to marry the widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall pay a fine of one shoe and be otherwise punished in a manner to be determined by law.

In lieu of marriage (if there is no acceptable man to be found) a woman shall get her father drunk and have sex with him in order to have children.

Is this the Bible Belt Religion that Falwell, Robertson, Smith and others that are ramming this crap down our throats with Bush's gutless approval???

Tolerance is one thing but this is pure madness to expect that people in the 21st century will live in this kind of world. Is the United Sattes decades or centuries behind the european and asiatic cultures that have no ax to grind.

How long do normal and loving and responsible people have to live in secrecy, fear and subject to the gestapo tactics of the State and the Church.. We have enough enemies on our own shores and do not have to look beyond the horizon for conflict.

Even the democrats are sleazly backing down to the religious interest of the Bible Belt of these fanatical right wing thugs and hoodlums of freedom. They control the interests of the politicans and the institutions of democracy and wear sheep's clothing but we all know who they are.....take heed America!!!
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