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 Topic: Arab Literature

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arno  



Joined: 27 Apr 2003
Posts: 1


Posted: 27 Apr 2003, 3:27 pm    Post subject: Arab Literature Reply with quote

It is not the case that "[t]he first down on the cheeks was UNIVERSALLY considered an enhancement of the boy's beauty" It was GENERALLY considered to be the end of beauty and a signal to end the pederastic relationship.
There are no anthologies of "beard poetry" The "extremely popular topos" was the first sprouting of down. Nobody denied that even the first signs of a facial hair were a blemish, but as you might prefer a piece of furniture with a scratch, or a stained jacket you are accustomed to to a new faultless one, you may prefer not yet to dump the 15-year old, but to sing the beauties of fully beared young men is scandalous (I do not say that this did not exist in reality, but "only" that Arab Poems are strictly pederastic).
The word used in these poems is never laHiya (beard) [or dhaqan (chin, beard)] but "idhâr" (down) [or "ariD" (cheek, downy cheek)]. They speak not of a forest of hear, of thick standing hear, but of the first sprouting as of ants on ivory, of writing on parchment, of a gently flowing rivulet rather highlighening chubby cheeks (not hiding them as a beard would). Some defend their going on fucking the boy (who can not blackmail them anymore, because nobody else would take him now, that the prime of beauty has passed): the boys are tamer knowing that there value has declined.
Outside the "down poetry" there is occasional reference to sex with a fully bearded man, even with a grey-haired, but I never came across a poem speaking of "the unspoilt beauty of a fully bearded YOUNG man." I am curious what anthologies of "beard poetry" Rowson had in mind.

It is not correct that "the sexual submission of one adult male to another was "assumed to be [always] the result of a pathological desire to be penetrated." It could as well be the result of greed, or of physical weakness (normally paired with feminine beauty or social weakness= poverty, no strong brother, no father with standing in the community).



I am appalled. A fortnight ago, I posed a query (I am curious what anthologies of "beard poetry" Rowson had in mind.), but no reaction.
Let me recapitulate:
-- The glbtq encycloedia got THE authority in the field to write the article “Arab Literature”.
-- He writes a good article (unlike “Islamic Art” e.g.) with some mistakes and a fundamental error: a category of boy-love poetry is misrepresented as gay poetry:
a) In the post-classical anthologies one finds lots of idhâr poems -- the normal word for beard being laHiya.
b) (But more importantly) the images in these poems show that a full beard is NOT meant.
c) These poems are apologies: even when someone states that idhâr is an embellishment, with the whole corpus in mind, it is clear, that it's understood that facial hair objectively is ugly, but that the boy in question has other qualities that make up for it: on him even hair becomes esthetic.
d) If Rowson were right, if these poems (or a good part of them) were about the beauty of fully bearded young men, sometimes the poetical I should fall in love with a young man.---In reality they always fall in love with a boy, but defend there prolonging the affair a bit.
e) The poems about fully bearded men are mostly not about fully bearded young men and their beauty, but ridicule a fully bearded old(er) man.
-- I think Rowson should disprove my points OR reword his article. (Since between the ninth and the nineteenth century a lot of down poems where written, and many of these have been collected into easily assessable anthologies, it should be no problem to refute my claims.) -- Part of the problem lies in the Encyclopaedia articles coming without notes.
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lhood  



Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 4
Interests: gay literature and such
Physical Location: San Diego, CA

Posted: 26 Jun 2003, 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Arab Literature Reply with quote

arno wrote:
It is not the case that "[t]he first down on the cheeks was UNIVERSALLY considered an enhancement of the boy's beauty" It was GENERALLY considered to be the end of beauty and a signal to end the pederastic relationship.
There are no anthologies of "beard poetry" The "extremely popular topos" was the first sprouting of down. Nobody denied that even the first signs of a facial hair were a blemish, but as you might prefer a piece of furniture with a scratch, or a stained jacket you are accustomed to to a new faultless one, you may prefer not yet to dump the 15-year old, but to sing the beauties of fully beared young men is scandalous (I do not say that this did not exist in reality, but "only" that Arab Poems are strictly pederastic).
The word used in these poems is never laHiya (beard) [or dhaqan (chin, beard)] but "idhâr" (down) [or "ariD" (cheek, downy cheek)]. They speak not of a forest of hear, of thick standing hear, but of the first sprouting as of ants on ivory, of writing on parchment, of a gently flowing rivulet rather highlighening chubby cheeks (not hiding them as a beard would). Some defend their going on fucking the boy (who can not blackmail them anymore, because nobody else would take him now, that the prime of beauty has passed): the boys are tamer knowing that there value has declined.
Outside the "down poetry" there is occasional reference to sex with a fully bearded man, even with a grey-haired, but I never came across a poem speaking of "the unspoilt beauty of a fully bearded YOUNG man." I am curious what anthologies of "beard poetry" Rowson had in mind.

It is not correct that "the sexual submission of one adult male to another was "assumed to be [always] the result of a pathological desire to be penetrated." It could as well be the result of greed, or of physical weakness (normally paired with feminine beauty or social weakness= poverty, no strong brother, no father with standing in the community).



I am appalled. A fortnight ago, I posed a query (I am curious what anthologies of "beard poetry" Rowson had in mind.), but no reaction.
Let me recapitulate:
-- The glbtq encycloedia got THE authority in the field to write the article “Arab Literature”.
-- He writes a good article (unlike “Islamic Art” e.g.) with some mistakes and a fundamental error: a category of boy-love poetry is misrepresented as gay poetry:
a) In the post-classical anthologies one finds lots of idhâr poems -- the normal word for beard being laHiya.
b) (But more importantly) the images in these poems show that a full beard is NOT meant.
c) These poems are apologies: even when someone states that idhâr is an embellishment, with the whole corpus in mind, it is clear, that it's understood that facial hair objectively is ugly, but that the boy in question has other qualities that make up for it: on him even hair becomes esthetic.
d) If Rowson were right, if these poems (or a good part of them) were about the beauty of fully bearded young men, sometimes the poetical I should fall in love with a young man.---In reality they always fall in love with a boy, but defend there prolonging the affair a bit.
e) The poems about fully bearded men are mostly not about fully bearded young men and their beauty, but ridicule a fully bearded old(er) man.
-- I think Rowson should disprove my points OR reword his article. (Since between the ninth and the nineteenth century a lot of down poems where written, and many of these have been collected into easily assessable anthologies, it should be no problem to refute my claims.) -- Part of the problem lies in the Encyclopaedia articles coming without notes.


Well, arno, I am overwhelmed. I suspect your comments have merit--however, I don't quite know where you are coming from. And, without a bit history and explanation, I am not sure I care ...

I am nothing if proved wrong ..

l
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